lassesen 12:27 am on December 31, 2015

Herbals for treating CFS

A reader wrote a comment and link on my Rifaximin post,

“Herbal therapy is equivalent to rifaximin for the treatment of small intestinal bacterial overgrowth”

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4030608/

The link has a table of 4 different capsules, each with different herbs. I have a working model that CFS/FM/IBS is a overgrowth of (Klebsiella, Enterobacteria, Enterococcus,Streptococcus) and very low levels of (E.Coli, Bifidobacterium, Lactobacillus) reported first in 1998.

The advantage of having a model is the ability to estimate probable impact from different herbs, spices, antibiotics etc.

Below, I took each of the herbs and attempt to cross-reference them to their impact on the above bacteria families to see if there are specific ones that are really well suited for CFS. The score is done as follow:

Overgrowth
- Effective 1
- No Info/Weak 0
- Resistant 0
Undergrowth
- Effective -2
- No Info/Weak -1
- Resistant 0

Feel free to use your own formula if you disagree.

Undergrowth is more important because those bacterias as they increase will reduce the overgrowth. Killing the overgrowth will leave a vacuum which may well be repopulated with dysfunctional bacteria. The Ideal Herb or spice would be a THREE (3). The best found was a Zero (0)

You must rotate herbs, I have seen this reported in multiple studies:

“In general, the development of adaptation varied according to the bacterial strain and the essential oil … it is important to use essential oils at efficient bactericidal doses in animal feed, food, and sanitizers, since bacteria can rapidly develop adaptation when exposed to sub-lethal concentrations of these oils.” [2015]

There is a single candidate “super” herb/spice (1) . Has any one tried Thyme oil or Thyme mouth wash? Please comment.

Thyme (Thymus vulgaris)

The best ones (0) are:

Mastic Gum (Chios Mastic Mastiha) – ideally chewed in the mouth
Neem (Azadirachta indica)
Oregano (Origanum compactum/vulgare) – used by the person in the letter I published.
Olive Leaf (Olea europaea)
Pau D’Arco (Tabebuia spp)
Tulsi (Ocimum tenuiflorum)

The second best ones (-1) are:

Cinnamon ( Cinnamomum verum)
Ginger (Zingiber Officinale)
Licorice (Glycyrrhiza glabra)
Rhubarb (Rheum rhabarbarum)
Sage (Salvia officinalis)
Thyme (Thymus vulgaris)
Wormwood (Artemisia)

The chart is based on whatever could be found. In some cases, some strains were killed and others were resistant. Your response will likely vary to each of the above.

For CLARITY to the brain fogged

3 VERY VERY GOOD
1 Unusually Good
0 Recommended
-1 Acceptable
-2 You may be doing more harm than good
-3 You are shooting craps — we have no solid information on what will happen
-4 You are probably harming yourself
-5 You are making yourself worst!

There is an excellent article on more unusual Indian herbs. “The millenarian use of these plants in folk medicine suggests that they represent an economic and safe alternative for treatment of Urinary Tract Infections.” As well as this article.

The Image:

Screen Shot 2015-12-30 at 4.21.34 PM

The Table

Herb	Klebsiella/ Enterobacteria	Enterococcus	Streptococcus	E.Coli	Bifidobacterium	Lactobacillus	Score for CFS
Acacia Catechu	Effective	Resistant	Effective	Effective	no info	no info	-2
Amur Cork Bark (Philodendron bark)	no info	no info	no info	no info	no info	no info	-3
Chinese goldthread (coptis chinensis – berberine)	Effective	Effective	Weak	Effective	Effective	Resistant	-1.5
Chinese Skullcap (Scutellaria baicalensis)	no info	no info	no info	no info	no info	Resistant	-2
Cinnamon ( Cinnamomum verum)	Effective	Effective	Effective	Weak	no info	Effective	-1
Clove (Syzygium aromaticum)	Effective	Effective	Effective	Effective	no info	Effective	-2
Dill Seed (Anethum graveolens)	Resistant	Weak	No Info	Weak	no info	Effective	-5
Garlic (Allium sativum)	Resistant	Effective	Effective	Effective	Effective	Effective	-4
Ginger (Zingiber Officinale)	Resistant	Weak	Effective	Effective	Resistant	Resistant	-1
Guduchi (Tinospora cordifolia)	Effective	no info	no info	Effective	no info	no info	-3
Haritaki (Terminalia chebula)	Effective	Effective	Effective	Effective	no info	Effective	-2
Horse Tail (Equisetum arvense)	Effective	no info	Effective	Effective	no info	no info	-2
Indian Barberry (Berberis aristata – Berberine)	Effective	Effective	Weak	Effective	Effective	Resistant	-2
Lemon Balm(Melissa officinalis)	Resistant	no info	no info	Effective	no info	no info	-4
Lemon grass (Cymbopogon citratus)	Effective	Effective	Effective	Effective	no info	Effective	-2
Licorice (Glycyrrhiza glabra)	Resistant	Effective	Effective	Resistant	no info	Effective	-1
Mastic Gum (Chios Mastic Mastiha)	Effective	Effective	Effective	Effective	no info	Resistant	0
Neem (Azadirachta indica)	Effective	Effective	Effective	Effective	no info	Resistant	0
Olive Leaf (Olea europaea)	Effective	Effective	Effective	Effective	no info	Resistant	0
Macassar Kernels (Brucea Javanica)	no info	no info	Effective	no info	no info	no info	-2
Oregano (Origanum compactum/vulgare)	Effective	Effective	Effective	Resistant	no info	Effective	0
Pau D’Arco (Tabebuia spp)	Effective	no info	no info	Weak	Resistant	Resistant	0
Picrasma Excelsa	no info	no info	no info	no info	no info	no info	-3
pinyin (Hedyotis Diffusa)	no info	no info	no info	no info	no info	no info	-3
Pulsatilla Chinensis	no info	no info	no info	no info	no info	no info	-3
Rhubarb (Rheum rhabarbarum)	no info	no info	Effective	Effective	Resistant	Resistant	-1
Rosemary (Rosmarinus officinalis)	Resistant	Weak	Effective	Effective	no info	Effective	-3
Sage (Salvia officinalis)	Resistant	Effective	Effective	Resistant	no info	Resistant	-1
Sida cordifolia	no info	no info	no info	no info	no info	no info	-3
Silver	Resistant	Effective	Effective	Resistant	Effective	Effective	-2
Stemona Sessilifolia	no info	no info	no info	no info	no info	no info	-3
Thyme (Thymus vulgaris)	Very Effective	Very Effective	Effective	Resistant	no info	no info	1
Tulsi (Ocimum tenuiflorum)	Effective	Effective	Effective	Effective	no info	Resistant	0
Winter Savory(Satureja montana)	No in	no info	Effective	Effective	no info	no info	-3
Wormwood (Artemisia)	Resistant	Resistant	Effective	Effective	Resistant	Resistant	-1
Yarrow (Achillea millefolium)	Effective	no info	Weak	Effective	no info	Resistant	-2

John 4:30 pm on December 31, 2015

Hi Ken, I have been unsuccessfully trying to find if miyarisan is transient or it establishes in the gut.
Wish you a Happy & prosperous New Year.
- lassesen 5:02 pm on December 31, 2015
  
  The fact that it was discovered in Human feces suggest that it CAN establish itself in the gut. Whether the microbiome allows it is the nasty question. Initially, it may fail, but over time with changes of the microbiome, this may alter.
  
  In terms of my model,
  
  “CBM has been shown to have antagonistic interaction against Candida albicans, Clostridium difficile , enterotoxigenic Escherichia coli, Klebsiella spp., Salmonella spp. and Vibrio spp….increase to beneficial bacteria (especially bifidobacteria and lactobacilli).”
  http://www.miyarisan.com/english_index.htm
  
  It is two PLUS for low and a NEGATIVE for at least one high.
  - John 9:23 pm on December 31, 2015
    
    I will try it for a few months & report back here. Among other things, I have tried a few of your suggestions & am finding them helpful. Reasonably steady progress, even if slow, is what I am hoping for. Keeping fingers crossed.
Jon 12:02 am on January 1, 2016

It’s interesting they title the study “Herbal therapy is equivalent to rifaximin for the treatment of small intestinal bacterial overgrowth”. They could have more accurately titled it “Herbal therapy is equivalent to rifaximin for the treatment of small intestinal bacterial overgrowth AND has less side effects” according to the results.

Incredibly useful post Ken. Over the last week I have added both L. Rhamnosus and Tulsi into my regimen. I had a herx reaction to the Tulsi (headaches, stuff nose, sore throat) that lasted 2 days only thankfully. Both L. Rhamnosus and Tulsi have contributed to more energy and a better sense of wellbeing.

I added L. Rhamnosus after reading your post on Calcium. Over the last month I have been experiencing occasional muscle twitching and an incredibly bad lower back. A number of years ago I had a similar problem and went to a trigger point therapist. She recommended taking a calcium supplement for the twitching which others questioned believing it should be magnesium. I took calcium at the time and it helped with the twitching. I started taking calcium again over the last month and it helped with the twitching and both it and trigger point resolved the bad back. After reading your post I started L. Rhamnosus (Culturelle) and it has resolved the twitching and given me a lot more energy.

I have been meaning to add Tulsi for a while after reading you talking about it. Within just a few days of starting it I have experienced an increased sense of wellbeing. Did your increased sense of wellbeing last after rotating off Tulsi?
- lassesen 2:17 am on January 1, 2016
  
  Yes, it persisted. If any improvement rapidly declined after rotating, I tended to stop the new one for a few days and if it continues, restart the old one. The washout on the new one is to verify that it was not an odd herx issue with the new one.
  
  Many thanks for sharing you experience. The x helps y(and perhaps only y) reporting is awesomeness.
Pingback: Probiotics for CFS | CFS Remission
Pingback: Dealing with the Herx | CFS Remission
Mark 1:34 pm on January 3, 2016

Hi Ken, I am fascinated by the table listing of herbs and their effectiveness against various bacterial strains including Lactobacillus which I am most interested in. I do not see the Table in either of the Articles you have links to in this posting. If it is not in either of the two linked articles where did you find it?
- lassesen 3:31 pm on January 3, 2016
  
  I created the table by spending many hours searching pubmed. Taking the herb or probiotic and the bacteria family and seeing if there are any articles. If they are, then scan the summary or read the article to see what the relationship reported was. In some cases, it was a single article only, others were hundreds of articles.
  
  I would love to see a professional take this table and get a graduate student to do a rigorous study.
Mark 5:25 pm on January 3, 2016

Great work on the Table Ken. Thanks for the clarification.
Pingback: The Frugal Recovery Plan | CFS Remission
Richard 5:52 am on January 14, 2016

Hi,

I’m just working my way through this but did you notice that one of the indian herbs/medicinals mentioned in the first article is psyllium husk.

Strange to think that something people have been taking to increase their fibre and improve their microbial health may be harming it.

And re Thyme. Back before I got CFS/ME, I had a series of sore throats that were at first treated with antibiotics and antifungals and then, when they did not work, with glycothymol mouthwash. Artificial thyme tea if you like.

Later when I was trying to recover from the dysbiosis caused by all of the antibiotics etc, a naturopath had me taking a very strong thyme tea, both to swallow (diluted) and to use as a mouthwash (neat).

I have since made thyme tea for sore throats, I would say the trick is not to use your teapot. The smell/flavour stays around for ages as there are parts of tea pots that are hard to clean. you would be better off using a glass jar or a small pot.

Come to think of it I do not know if it is better to steep or boil. I have only ever steeped it like tea.

also you have probably seen it but I will include this link to a nature article showing a difference between male and female me/cfs microbiomes and symptoms. http://www.nature.com/articles/srep19171
- lassesen 6:12 am on January 14, 2016
  
  Many thanks, I will re-examine psyllium husk and update pages
Richard 6:18 am on January 14, 2016

Oops, I am not sure that my comment went through, so this may be a repost.

Hi,

I’m just working my way through this but did you notice that one of the indian herbs/medicinals mentioned in the first article is psyllium husk.

Strange to think that something people have been taking to increase their fibre and improve their microbial health may be harming it.

They also list cumin and coriander seed, pomegranate seed and king of bitters.

And re Thyme. Back before I got CFS/ME, I had a series of sore throats that were at first treated with antibiotics and antifungals and then, when they did not work, with glycothymol mouthwash. Artificial thyme tea if you like.

Later when I was trying to recover from the dysbiosis caused by all of the antibiotics etc, a naturopath had me taking a very strong thyme tea, both to swallow (diluted) and to use as a mouthwash (neat).

I have since made thyme tea for sore throats, I would say the trick is not to use your teapot. The smell/flavour stays around for ages as there are parts of tea pots that are hard to clean. you would be better off using a glass jar or a small pot.

Come to thing of it I do not know if it is better to steep or boil. I have only ever steeped it like tea.
Pingback: Hierbas para tratar el SFC: – SfcSalud
Pingback: Pau D’Arco for CFS | CFS Remission
Beth 11:41 pm on June 12, 2017

Why is berberine not recommended for CFS?
- lassesen 2:58 am on June 13, 2017
  
  It is documented to kill Bifidobacteria and E.Coli, both are extremely low (or zero) with CFS.
Deborah Canovan 9:24 pm on November 26, 2017

Thank you for all your work, I have seen significant improvements by implementing your suggestions and removing high histamine foods.
For the Thyme oil do you use an essential oil or a tincture? if an essential oil which brand do you recommend as most state they can’t be taken internally
- lassesen 3:03 am on November 27, 2017
  
  For thyme, get a thyme plant and with fresh leaves either grind up use it, or add it to a blender with other things…
andrej 8:45 am on January 1, 2021

Garlic a 4 and not effective against kleb? How accurate is this?
- lassesen 8:59 am on January 1, 2021
  
  A 2019 study found that is is effective (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32128511/ )
  But this earlier study states “Except Enterobacter sp. and Klebsiella sp., all other isolates were susceptible when subjected to ethanolic extracts of garlic and ginger.” https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23569978/
  
  Where as this study found its effectiveness is determined by the METHOD OF EXTRACT… https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22546657/
  
  So, IMHO, it is unsafe to trust that it is effective when taken directly.
Mili 10:59 am on November 16, 2022

Hey Ken! I’ve just uploaded my BiomeSight data (part of the Covid long hauler study) and am trying to best figure out the course of action.

Unfortunately many of the herbals here, which I was hoping to try and rotate, are outweighed by avoid rather than take. I have used the search for specific modifier under “my profile”.

The only ones that have a slightly positive “net value” would be oregano oil and tulsi for me.
Does this mean, I might have to consider prescirption antibiotics? I was really hoping to do this on my own and not have to go to doctors beging for a prescription.

Any suggestions would be very appreciated!

P.S. Also I’m having some difficulty with the “simplified suggestion download”. Somehow all the fields for vitamins etc are always empty for me. Is this a general issue, or am I doing something wrong?

Thank you and all the best from Austria!